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Tier System Update??

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on Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:29 pm

Game Mechanics wrote:Offense - Governs over the physical strength, ie. the cutting power of your sword or the force of your punches and kicks.
Defense - Governs over the physical defense, ie. how much damage you will take from the attack of an opponent.
Speed - Governs over the physical swiftness, ie. how fast can you move/react, as well as skill with high speed movement.
Reiryoku - Governs over the reiryoku control, which in turns reigns over the effectiveness of your spiritual powers, ie. Kido, elemental techniques, etc. For quincy and bounts, this attribute reads as 'Reishi' instead of reiryoku.

So according to this, Speed is purely physical. But shouldn't speed be counted as mental reflexes as well? I made my character with this notion in mind. really?

Should these specialties be looked at as being added AR bonuses when a skill that uses them is involved?

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on Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:30 pm

Actually now I'm just confused....entirely. So are the specialties optional?

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on Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:27 am

Also, why on earth are the cooldowns being lengthened to such an extreme? All of these changes seem to be of great benefit to those who made characters earlier and gained tiers and techniques using the easier method being that newer people will not never be able to catch up. I don't even want to get into how problematic that is in terms of plot agency.  

I'm also concerned about the fact that the general assumption is that all RPers only post here every other week. This puts the system on the side of those who are slow/rare posters and basically says either wait and post as slowly as they do or get lost to those who prefer to RP more frequently. Was this the general idea? You want people to post less often and over longer spans of time? This seems to be the case with cooldowns of FOUR and FIVE MONTHS. really?

I'm not waiting around for half a year for a single tier. That's just plain ludicrous. smh

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on Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:05 pm

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Shinigami
Shinigami
Cirujano Nadroj wrote:
Game Mechanics wrote:Offense - Governs over the physical strength, ie. the cutting power of your sword or the force of your punches and kicks.
Defense - Governs over the physical defense, ie. how much damage you will take from the attack of an opponent.
Speed -  Governs over the physical swiftness, ie. how fast can you move/react, as well as skill with high speed movement.
Reiryoku - Governs over the reiryoku control, which in turns reigns over the effectiveness of your spiritual powers, ie. Kido, elemental techniques, etc. For quincy and bounts, this attribute reads as 'Reishi' instead of reiryoku.

So according to this, Speed is purely physical. But shouldn't speed be counted as mental reflexes as well? I made my character with this notion in mind. really?

Should these specialties be looked at as being added AR bonuses when a skill that uses them is involved?

Cirujano Nadroj wrote:Also, why on earth are the cooldowns being lengthened to such an extreme? All of these changes seem to be of great benefit to those who made characters earlier and gained tiers and techniques using the easier method being that newer people will not never be able to catch up. I don't even want to get into how problematic that is in terms of plot agency.  

I'm also concerned about the fact that the general assumption is that all RPers only post here every other week. This puts the system on the side of those who are slow/rare posters and basically says either wait and post as slowly as they do or get lost to those who prefer to RP more frequently. Was this the general idea? You want people to post less often and over longer spans of time? This seems to be the case with cooldowns of FOUR and FIVE MONTHS. really?

I'm not waiting around for half a year for a single tier. That's just plain ludicrous.  smh  

The speed attribute governs reaction speed and reflexes as well (which in my eyes would be associated with physical speed rather than information processing), and the reason for this is because we didn't want to implement an intelligence attribute. Mental capabilities of a character are up to abilities, as is, for example, sensing others, healing oneself, etc.

The reason is realism. We don't want a 5-1 to become 1-3 in a few months, but if you had paid attention to the tier system, you'd see that it's far from extreme. You have three ways of gaining a new tier, ie. having a cooldown in lone wolf and tag team methods will not disable you from using death-defying method. The death-defying method can no longer be written alone, as we feel there is no real danger here though. Do note, that plot events often give off a free tier-up, so if you argue that the cooldowns are too lengthy, you haven't taken a look at the whole picture.

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on Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:10 am

Mmkay....I guess that makes sense so far as speed goes. I'm wondering if the attributes could be viewed with a more open interpretation?

I think it would also make sense to create an additional attribute "Ingenuity". It makes no sense for someone without the Strength attribute to be lifting half ton bolders and hurling them in the same sense that the current list allows for muscle heads to act like inventors. In terms of IC play it makes little sense for a brawler to suddenly invent a time machine or space ship.

If someone is willing to put in the necessary work to climb from 5-1 to 1-3 in a few months (don't think that was possible with the old cooldowns) why not then let them? The old training system was good enough for those who are currently in the tier 2 bracket which is how they got their in the first place. Why limit people to restrictions clearly based on the inactivity and low posting habits of the current lead RPers?  

The problem with looking at plot rewards as a replacement is two fold. First, it again limits active RPers based on the habits of inactive/slow posters. For example this plot which has laster MONTHS smh thanks to peoples "real life issues". Second, not everyone wants to take part in the plot to gain power; this is especially the case if they have a specialized character type or it wouldn't logically make sense for their character to gain strength just from being present at a plot event. Like say someone who is 3-1 enters a war thread and all their character does is sit back and watch, or hack up some NPCs that wouldn't even register as 5-3 if they had actual apps made. It would make no sense for that character to be gain a tier just based on being there. I've read the post and I still look at the increased times as being extreme for all of the reasons I just mentioned.

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on Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:38 pm

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Cirujano Nadroj wrote:Why limit people to restrictions clearly based on the inactivity and low posting habits of the current lead RPers?

The problem with looking at plot rewards as a replacement is two fold. First, it again limits active RPers based on the habits of inactive/slow posters. For example this plot which has laster MONTHS smh thanks to peoples "real life issues". Second, not everyone wants to take part in the plot to gain power; this is especially the case if they have a specialized character type or it wouldn't logically make sense for their character to gain strength just from being present at a plot event. Like say someone who is 3-1 enters a war thread and all their character does is sit back and watch, or hack up some NPCs that wouldn't even register as 5-3 if they had actual apps made. It would make no sense for that character to be gain a tier just based on being there. I've read the post and I still look at the increased times as being extreme for all of the reasons I just mentioned.

The listing of attributes is the only thing we really did in the guide. We're asking people to interpret and fit them to roleplay by using common sense - for example, speed would apply to reaction speed as well. Do note, that the attributes are less of physical attributes and more akin to a combat orientation. Someone with boosted offense will have greater sharpness, momentum, force, etc, to their attacks, while someone with boosted defense will have enhanced durability, endurance and technique. There's space for development and creativity from the part of the roleplayers for a reason.

If I am reading right, you're indicating, that we came up with a new training system, so that new members would have harder time catching up to the current lead roleplayers? That the restrictions are "clearly based on the inactivity and low posting habits of the current lead RPers", as you put it above. We appreciate all feedback, negative or positive, but constructive criticism would be the way to do things, while insulting complaints will not get your ideas anywhere. The system was changed, because we saw it abused by players, and that it wasn't quite fitting to the atmosphere we wanted.

We are already working on a new event system, that will prevent what has happened with the plot right now from happening again. In addition, we're releasing a new currency system soon, which is linked to the training in the manner, that you will have to pay for your tier-ups, technique slots, items, etc. The only effective way of getting those points is posting and completing threads. Now, please drop those vile accusations about making the system more favorable to inactive, low posting roleplayers. That is not the case, I assure you. To your concern for people gaining tier-ups for nothing, the event system will bring some new changes to this as well, and the staff will make sure that only the deserving acquire these free tier-ups.

If you have suggestions or ideas, please express them now. Your critique/complaining doesn't help anyone, you least of all people, if you cannot make it constructive and productive. We will take ideas of the members into consideration, but we will not discuss complaints or go on and explain ourselves to an unhappy member, like we have done in the past.

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on Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:04 am

Whoa whoa whoa...I haven't made any insulting complaints. I've given ideas already and it seems as though for the most part they've been shrugged off simply pegged as insults. I did express my opinion that it's completely unfair to have multiple people waiting on one or two because they supposedly have more important things to do. Let's not paint anyone as insulting because they are offering a different perspective based on a positionality different than your own. This should be valued, not denigrated. The fact that even just one member complains instead of saying "screw this I'm gone" should mean something.

I appreciate that there is some creative interpretation wiggle room in the attributes but I think most will likely take them literally to mean what the name of the attribute implies on the most basic level. This is especially the case with the current description of each. Perhaps you can add more on each the likes of what you just now explained? It's especially needed for 'Defense'. While durability is obviously attributed to that specific word, not much else is. When you said "technique" do you means greater technical ability when it comes to defensive techniques like parrying? Perhaps it would be a better idea to make attributes which are more applicable to Bleach (e.g. swordsmanship, unarmed, reiryoku, speed {and I still would say ingenuity is a must have}).

What exactly constitutes abuse in regards to the old system? I hope it doesn't boil down to someone becoming extremely active on an otherwise slow site. Did they put in a whole bunch of work to gain power in character at a rate faster than what the current RP plot leaders were able to keep up with (or comfortable with) due to their lower level of activity? If so, this change could very well cause that person(s) to just become less active. That's counter-intuitive to what we'd want if we desire increased activity.  

I should add that this one person voicing concern may very well be voicing something that others are thinking as well but simply haven't for any of several reasons. This isn't so much an accusation so I apologize if it comes across that way. I was not present for the creation so I have no idea what the intent is. I do however see the immediate impact so far as the current changes that exist. They do in fact prevent extremely active newer members who may be of lower tier from closing the tier gap between themselves and members who are of higher tiers but don't post as often in a timely fashion. Of course, I don't have the complete picture of the changes you mention so I don't know if, when all is said and done, they allow for the extremely active to be adequately and fairly rewarded for their posting/RPing contributions to the site. At this point in time the system is incomplete so I can't agree or disagree with intentions. I suppose everything would have had to have been introduced in one go.

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on Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:19 pm

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Shinigami
Shinigami
Cirujano Nadroj wrote:Whoa whoa whoa...I haven't made any insulting complaints. I've given ideas already and it seems as though for the most part they've been shrugged off simply pegged as insults. I did express my opinion that it's completely unfair to have multiple people waiting on one or two because they supposedly have more important things to do. Let's not paint anyone as insulting because they are offering a different perspective based on a positionality different than your own. This should be valued, not denigrated. The fact that even just one member complains instead of saying "screw this I'm gone" should mean something.

I appreciate that there is some creative interpretation wiggle room in the attributes but I think most will likely take them literally to mean what the name of the attribute implies on the most basic level. This is especially the case with the current description of each. Perhaps you can add more on each the likes of what you just now explained? It's especially needed for 'Defense'. While durability is obviously attributed to that specific word, not much else is. When you said "technique" do you means greater technical ability when it comes to defensive techniques like parrying? Perhaps it would be a better idea to make attributes which are more applicable to Bleach (e.g. swordsmanship, unarmed, reiryoku, speed {and I still would say ingenuity is a must have}).

What exactly constitutes abuse in regards to the old system? I hope it doesn't boil down to someone becoming extremely active on an otherwise slow site. Did they put in a whole bunch of work to gain power in character at a rate faster than what the current RP plot leaders were able to keep up with (or comfortable with) due to their lower level of activity? If so, this change could very well cause that person(s) to just become less active. That's counter-intuitive to what we'd want if we desire increased activity.  

I should add that this one person voicing concern may very well be voicing something that others are thinking as well but simply haven't for any of several reasons. This isn't so much an accusation so I apologize if it comes across that way. I was not present for the creation so I have no idea what the intent is. I do however see the immediate impact so far as the current changes that exist. They do in fact prevent extremely active newer members who may be of lower tier from closing the tier gap between themselves and members who are of higher tiers but don't post as often in a timely fashion. Of course, I don't have the complete picture of the changes you mention so I don't know if, when all is said and done, they allow for the extremely active to be adequately and fairly rewarded for their posting/RPing contributions to the site. At this point in time the system is incomplete so I can't agree or disagree with intentions. I suppose everything would have had to have been introduced in one go.

Okay, I want to say something before I get down to actual explanations. Your opinion and opinions of any other member are valuable to us, they really are, and we want members to offer us different perspective. You offered some great points, and I think I was being rude towards you by ignoring them in my previous post for most part. Still, I found some other things in your post insulting and accusing, even if this wasn't your intention - I propose, that you shape your criticism like you did in the above reply.

We are well-aware of your past suggestions of a specialization system, and I have to say, that we've been talking about something like that with Izuna for a long while now. We are bringing in a specialization system, but because we do not want to make the AR/FAR system any more complicated than it is right now, specializations will not raise your power in the fields, but your character's skill. For example, Intelligence specialization will likely allow you to create items without having to train for them (you will still have to buy the slots, though), and maybe even resist mental powers like illusion. Swordmanship will give you additional technique slots, as will hand-to-hand and Kidou specializations. This is a total wip, so if you want to be useful, you should totally throw in all your own ideas with this in another feedback thread (that is, you want to). I know you have some ideas, so it could be really nice to work on this with you.

When we finish the systems of BS points, together with the new training system, we hope that it will decrease/discourage inactivity. See, if you post once a week, acquiring of the cash for a tier-up slot will be really slow - if you're active, you'll get the cash in a week or so. It's true, that the system might have a flaw, that hinders the development of characters, and so, we are discussing about it right now. We still do not seek to be easy on those, who want their characters to become tier two or one, as that would take a lot of time in-character. Realism, like I said, was the emphasis on the creation of the new system. I see now your point of older characters having had it easier, and this rings true, but that is just what a new system requires - older members are always going to have perks during times like these. Just wait once we are finished with the other system, and then assess whenever you still think the training system encourages inactivity. I promise I will take your opinion under consideration with Izuna and other staff members, and if your thoughts point out a flaw, we can fix it somehow. For example, I am already thinking of ways a member could shorten their characters' training cooldowns.

Despite what you might think, we were not really thinking of ourselves, when we gave birth to this new system.

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on Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:30 am

Mmkay ^_^

Though it doesn't HAVE TO BE that way. The RPers that gained their tier the old "easily exploited" way just want it to be.

I'll hold off on any further critique until I see a 100% finished system. It's hard to make any statements without having a full picture after all.

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on Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:40 pm

Before I forget, I wanted to state that it would be a mistake to call it 'Intelligence' as opposed to 'Ingenuity' or something that implies "Inventiveness". A character can be "intelligent" without having the ability to invent something in the field of any sciences. Kido creators for example are obviously gifted in the arena of reiatsu manipulation/reformation but aren't inventive in terms of science. :urharaftw:

Any idea on when it will be finished? I'll be waiting until then to RP to see if it even works for me.

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